Just a quick note:

Saturday, November 19, 2005 is our next meeting. Same location (unless we decide to switch it to the coffee house last minute again...lol.

We really seemed to have a great meeting last time; not a huge turn out, but Curt, Jason, and I connected and had some provoking conversation. Again, this men's group is open to anyone who is interested in accountability, scripture study, discussion of real-life issues, and growth.

Also, an important point for discussion:

In December we have two scheduled meetings: Saturday December 3rd and 17th. Should we cancel the meeting on the 17th, as it is so close to Christmas? I won't be in town that weekend, so I leave it up to the rest of you to decide if you want to get together.

What Is Permissible vs. What is Beneficial II

[This is a comment left on a previous post (What is Permissible vs. What is Beneficial) that I thought should be seen by all. I've slightly modified it by editing structure but not wording and highlighting ideas I saw as central. Feel free to look at the origninal post if you wish to read it before the modifications.]

Curt said:
"Sorry folks. . . I don't normally jump into these things, but I have have a strange feeling radiating from my big toe that says I need to post. :) (could be the Holy Ghost. . . so here she goes.) I think that this topic is a prime example of how following a Christian religion can get in the way of walking alongside a loving Jesus. Plainly put, it's the difference between following the Letter of the Law like those under the old covenant and following the Spirit of the Law under the New covenant. I agree with everyone who stated previously that it's an issue of the heart, and the heart is judged by God alone, and can only be discerned through the power of the Holy Spirit, not by some systematic Christian system of checks and balances known as the Letter of the Law.

And for those of you who stated it's hinged upon the Scripture I agree with you as well. In fact, I'd challenge everyone on this blog to grab yourself a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (and a glass of wine, coffee, tea or grape juice, depending personal motives for doing so at the time :). . . ) and look up every scripture in the Bible that includes the words "strong drink, wine, drunkenness, fruit of the vine, etc." (It will take about and hour of your time) Make 3 columns on a piece of paper labeled "To Drink", "Not to Drink", and "Sometimes yes, sometimes no". (Yes, I've done this. . . thanks to personal doubt, and Christians who try to push religion on me instead of helping me see Jesus.) Interestingly, what you will find, is that all three of your columns will be about equally filled.

The only thing that is clear in Scripture is that "drunkenness" is not good and can lead to more sin. The rest is an issue of motive, not an issue of action. If this weren't the case then, I think it would be safe to assume that Jesus's first miracle would have been the "turning of water into Welch's", for FEAR that someone in the wedding party might get drunk and cause a raucous while He was trying to explain how much God loved them.

Perhaps, if alcohol is the root of the issue, then we should be convicted for taking cough syrup, because "even moderation might cause a young believer to stumble". Perhaps Jesus should have asked more politely for the money changers to leave the temple, for FEAR that any angry outburst might cause young believers to believe that all anger is okay regardless of motive. Perhaps Christians should give up eating all meat, because their are some Christians out there who refrain from eating meat because of the fact that it is so rare to find domestic livestock being treated ethically. . . we shouldn't cause them to stumble either right? The bottom line there is still a fleshly need within the Christians to follow a religion of human principles, bathed in legalism. And sadly, the world sees it, and decides that they don't want anything to do with Jesus, because they don't want anything to do with legalism and a human doctrine.

I can't say that I blame them. On a side note, We've forgotten that the first person to introduce grape juice in communion was John Wesley early in his ministry in Bristol, England. Why? Because his ministry was to a city that had one of the highest rates of alcoholism at the time in all of England. Up until that point wine was served in every church, regardless of denomination. It all comes down to motive. . .

The times in my life when I've had to much and been a bad witness. . . yes, of course, the Spirit let me know I was in the wrong. When I've raised a glass to kill pain, without caring at all about young believers and alcoholics, of course I've been convicted. However the many times I've been in edifying conversations about Jesus with believers and non-believers alike over a pint of Guinness in a pub. . . funny. . . no conviction at all. Ironically, my motives at those time were different also. Not to mention. . . the few times when I got to witness a non-believer find out that Jesus paid the penalty for everything they've ever done wrong. Does that wonderful moment gain or lose any significance in God's eyes whether there is a pint in my hand or not? The Bottom line is. . . to walk as if by following rules and "Christian" principles alone, we are somehow more pleasing to God is to trample His grace under foot, and to put oneself back under the old Law, given to prove our inability to be righteous in the first place. Rather, I choose to follow "His still small voice" rather than rules. . . a terrifying concept for those who follow a religion.

My name is Curt, and I currently attend Worldview Community Church in Cleveland. . . I'm not posting this anonymously, because I'm not afraid. . . and I too am imperfect. . . and in love with His Spirit and His Grace. Things that are "beneficial" produce good fruit.* Who are we to criticize produce, regardless whether the tree is domestic or wild. . . . and all the country folk said Amen!!! Jesus was a friend of who? sinners? Every Christian should ask themselves this question? Are sinners attracted to the Jesus in me like they were attracted to the Jesus that walked the earth in the first century? If they aren't, then something in me has to change. . . maybe my religion. Think about it. Love ya all. "

[In case you are not familiar with it, I just wanted to note that the reference to "good fruit," comes from the concept of the "Fruit of the Spirit," but also the concept of "good fruit" in this case deals with later results of our actions (if I plant a seed, will I later get a tree full of apples or nothing?)]