What is Permissible vs. What is Beneficial
Well, we have hit the subject in our little chat about sin and freedom, in a roundabout way. Since we are saved by Christ's blood, everything is permissible (Paul talks about everything from NOT getting circumsized to eating meat sacrificed to idols - today that would include hanging out at bars like Jesus hung out with Matthew and his pals). Then there is the flip side - not everything is beneficial.
If it comes down to the fact that we won't go to hell for going to a bar (it is permissible), this may encourage some to hit bars regularly (as this group will do next Saturday). However, if one makes it a regular habit to hang around a bar, it may not be beneficial... Alcoholism is NOT one of the fruits of the Spirit.
Here is the issue to discuss: is there anything that is so un-beneficial that it really should not be done at all? Why, if EVERYTHING is permissible?
Well, we have hit the subject in our little chat about sin and freedom, in a roundabout way. Since we are saved by Christ's blood, everything is permissible (Paul talks about everything from NOT getting circumsized to eating meat sacrificed to idols - today that would include hanging out at bars like Jesus hung out with Matthew and his pals). Then there is the flip side - not everything is beneficial.
If it comes down to the fact that we won't go to hell for going to a bar (it is permissible), this may encourage some to hit bars regularly (as this group will do next Saturday). However, if one makes it a regular habit to hang around a bar, it may not be beneficial... Alcoholism is NOT one of the fruits of the Spirit.
Here is the issue to discuss: is there anything that is so un-beneficial that it really should not be done at all? Why, if EVERYTHING is permissible?
posted by Mick Ó Seasnáin at
8:38 PM
10 Comments:
ooh..interesting subject....i say, each person needs to be led by the Holy Spirit....b/c He could have you DO something one time and its awesome and ask you to refrain from the very same thing next time b/c He knows its not a good idea.....and if you are in step wiht Him, how can you go wrong?? also, i think we say things about "grace" and "freedom" a lot as christians in a real wrong and twisted way....God doesn't give us "grace" to sin...right? but grace to get out of the temptation to sin.....anyways, theres my two cents......
By
Bek, at 10:25 PM
One thing not permissable is adultery! I thin we would all agree, I HOPE!
By
Donna, at 8:54 AM
and drugs, they are illegal, so we should follow the law.
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Donna, at 8:55 AM
Of course it is our responsibility to follow the letter of the law (the "give to caesar what is caesar's" argument). Far too many people go from the baby-like understanding of "everything is wrong" to the childish understanding of "God gives us grace" and stop there. That leads to the twisted reasoning that makes every sin continually OK.
Also, that grace doesn't make it permissible to sin even once. The grace is applied AFTER the sin, not BEFORE. If doing something is an outright, intentional sin, then it's your responsibility to avoid it.
However, in this case going to a bar is spiritually benign. Having a beverage containing alcohol is not a sin. It does, however, start you on a path that leads to various sins...and that is why bars have to be seriously considered. Alcoholism, fights, or even getting inebriated are potential effects of going to the bar...and those are what we ought to avoid. For some that means never even going to the bar in the first place.
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Jason, at 12:11 PM
What about drinking around people who you know have had alcohol problems? Doesn't Paul say not to eat the meat of idols if it leads a brother to stumble? Or what about our example to younger ones? Even the conversation on this blog can be read by younger Christians from your church... then they can justify that it is ok to drink...
By
Anonymous, at 4:53 PM
...and it is okay to have a drink, provided you are of the legal age. We have a responsibility to follow our governments laws.
Remember, the last line of my last comment was For some that means never even going to the bar in the first place.
This is definitely a fine line to walk. It is our responsibility to make sure we don't cause our brothers to stumble. Drinking around a friend with alcoholic tendencies is not the right thing to do.
Yet those comments need to be viewed with proper discernment. The benefits outweight the hypothetical problems. We are not glorifying drinking. Drinking is a neutral activity, and as such we are boldly taking our collective group strength into the real world with intentions of fellowship and a small dose of evangelism.
Last thing: Justification is a nasty trick that I am, unfortunately, very good at. The real test is to see if one's "feelings" hold any weight up to the words of the bible.
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Jason, at 2:13 PM
i say it's all about the heart! and motives! like jason was saying things are spiritually benign or nuetral. and like bek said: being led by the spirit! and yes jason & amy! take it to the bible!
so what about being around non christians who are drinking? say 2 beers with dinner... have a beer/drink and they might feel more comfortable with you.. or abstain... it's easy to fall into self-righteousness or licensiousness... any ideas how to walk in truth and love in this situation... maybe it's like bek said... every situation is diff. and the spirit will lead us...
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cheryl, at 11:03 AM
yes... what does it really communicate to a non-believer if you tell them drinking is bad?
If you have problems with alcohol, understandably you don't want to be in an atmosphere with alcohol. Anyone would understand that.
But if you are telling a non-believer that drinking is bad, and that non-believer is drinking, you are effectively condemning the person. It's really not drinking that is the issue. The issue is excessive use and misuse.
I think that people who are not willing to be relatable are the ones who trully have the problem.
By
Mick Ó Seasnáin, at 3:22 PM
nothing is by coincidence, everything happens for a reason, because God can see the bigger picture. And if somehow, we walkinto that bar, it is to teach us, because we are also continually learning, but everything happens for a reason, as part of His plan for us.
God bless everybody!
~mizrashae
By
Stephanie Jewell, at 7:47 AM
Sorry folks. . . I don't normally jump into these things, but I have have a strange feeling radiating from my big toe that says I need to post. :) (could be the Holy Ghost. . . so here she goes.) I think that this topic is a prime example of how following a Christian religion can get in the way of walking alongside a loving Jesus. (Plainly put, it's the difference between following the Letter of the Law like those under the old covenant and following the Spirit of the Law under the New covenant. I agree with everyone who stated previously that it's and issue of the heart, and the heart is judged by God alone, and can only be discerned through the power of the Holy Spirit, not by some systematic Christian system of checks and balances known as the Letter of the Law. And for those of you who stated it's hinged upon the Scripture I agree with you as well. In fact, I'd challenge everyone on this blog to grab yourself a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (and a glass of wine, coffee, tea or grape juice, depending personal motives for doing so at the time :). . . ) and look up every Scipture in the Bible that includes the words "strong drink, wine, drunkenness, fruit of the vine, etc." (It will take about and hour of your time) Make 3 columns on a piece of paper labeled "To Drink", "Not to Drink", and "Sometimes yes, sometimes no". (Yes, I've done this. . . thanks to personal doubt, and Christians who try to push religion on me instead of helping me see Jesus.) Interestingly, what you will find, is that all three of your columns will be about equally filled. The only thing that is clear in Scripture is that "drunkeness" is not good and can lead to more sin. The rest is an issue of motive, not an issue of action. If this weren't the case then, I think it would be safe to assume that Jesus's first miracle would have been the "turning of water into Welch's", for FEAR that someone in the wedding party might get drunk and cause a raucous while He was trying to explain how much God loved them. Perhaps, if alcohol is the root of the issue, then we should be convicted for taking cough syrup, because "even moderation might cause a young believer to stumble". Perhaps Jesus should have asked more politely for the money changers to leave the temple, for FEAR that any angry outburst might cause young believers to believe that all anger is okay regardless of motive. Perhaps Christians should give up eating all meat, because their are some Christians out there who refrain from eating meat because of the fact that it is so rare to find domestic livestock being treated ethically. . . we shouldn't cause them to stumble either right? The bottom line there is still a fleshly need within the Christians to follow a religion of human principles, bathed in legalism. And sadly, the world sees it, and decides that they don't want anything to do with Jesus, because they don't want anything to do with legalism and a human doctrine. I can't say that I blame them. On a side note, We've forgotten that the first person to introduce grape juice in communion was John Wesley early in his ministry in Bristol, England. Why? Because his ministry was to a city that had one of the highest rates of alcoholism at the time in all of England. Up until that point wine was served in every church, regardless of denomination. It all comes down to motive. . . The times in my life when I've had to much and been a bad witness. . . yes, of course, the Spirit let me know I was in the wrong. When I've raised a glass to kill pain, without caring at all about young believers and alcoholics, of course I've been convicted. However the many times I've been in edifying conversations about Jesus with believers and non-believers alike over a pint of Guiness in a pub. . . funny. . . no conviction at all. Ironically, my motives at those time were different also. Not to mention. . . the few times when I got to witness a non-believer find out that Jesus paid the penalty for everything they've ever done wrong. Does that wonderful moment gain or lose any significance in God's eyes whether there is a pint in my hand or not? The Bottom line is. . . to walk as if by following rules and "christian" principles alone, we are somehow more pleasing to God is to trample His grace under foot, and to put oneself back under the old Law, given to prove our inability to be righteous in the first place. Rather, I choose to follow "His still small voice" rather than rules. . . a terrifying concept for those who follow a religion. My name is Curt, and I currently attend Worldview Community Church in Cleveland. . . I'm not posting this anonymously, because I'm not afraid. . . and I too am imperfect. . . and in love with His Spirit and His Grace. Things that are "beneficial" produce good fruit. Who are we to criticize produce, regardless whether the tree is domestic or wild. . . . and all the counry folk said Amen!!! Jesus was a friend of who? sinners? Every Chrisian should ask themselves this question? Are sinners attracted to the Jesus in me like they were attracted to the Jesus that walked the earth in the first century? If they aren't, then something in me has to change. . . maybe my religion. Think about it. Love ya all.
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